Season 04 - Episode 01: "I'm Indigenous Not Mestizo" The Art & Activism of Rapper Jaguar Arreola - Part Three (The Debrief)
In this three-part series, Brown University PhD Students Benjamin Salinas and Adelaida Tamayo examine questions of art, activism, and identity in conversation with Jaguar Arreoloa, an Indigenous-Chicano rapper based in Los Angeles, California.
In Part Three (The Debrief), Ben and Adelaida reflect on the interview with Jaguar, what they found inspiring, and each of their key takeaways from the process of creating the episode.
TRANSCRIPT:
SPEAKERS
Anar Parikh, Benjamin Salinas, Adelaida Tamayo
Anar Parikh 00:00
Anthropological Airwaves is the official podcast of the journal American Anthropologist, whose main offices are located on the traditional and ancestral territories of the Nacotchank, Anacostia, and Piscataway peoples. The Anacostia and Potomac rivers have long been places of trade and gathering for Indigenous peoples, and Washington DC is now home to diverse Indigenous people from across Turtle Island. American Anthropologist has published material throughout its history that have taken knowledge from Indigenous peoples for a scholarly audience and has not required its authors or editors to be good relations to Indigenous peoples and communities. Acknowledging territory is only one step in repairing these relationships. The Editorial Collective of the journal is committed to deep listening and engagement with Indigenous scholars, peoples, and communities to explore ways to be a better relation.
Anar Parikh 00:51
Today’s recording is the third of a three-part episode that was produced on the traditional territories of Indigenous peoples across Turtle Island. This piece of the series was recorded, edited, and produced on the occupied ancestral lands of the Narragansett in what is now called Providence, Rhode Island. As its original inhabitants, the Narragansett people have stewarded this land since time immemorial and continue to do so today. Parts of this episode, including this recording, were produced from the traditional territories of the Catawba, Waxhaw, Cheraw and Sugaree people. While many descendants of Cheraw, Waxhaw, and Sugaree communities eventually joined the Catawba peoples, today, the Catawba Nation continues to thrive in what is now called Rock Hill, South Carolina.
Anar Parikh 01:36
Hi everyone! Thanks for joining us for another episode of Anthropological Airwaves – the official podcast of the journal, American Anthropologist. This is Season Four, Episode One, Part Three.
Anar Parikh 02:11
My name is Anar Parikh, I’m a PhD Candidate in Anthropology at Brown University. Some of you might already recognize me and my voice, but in case we haven’t had the chance to be acquainted yet, I’m the Associate Editor of the Podcast at American Anthropologist and the Executive Producer of this show. I use she/her pronouns. Today on Anthropological Airwaves, we’re bringing you the final installment of “I’m Indigenous Not Mestizo: The Art and Activism of Rapper Jaguar Arreola,” a three-part series produced by Adelaida Tamayo, and Benjamin Salinas, PhD students in the Department of Anthropology at Brown University. Originally submitted as a collaborative, multi-modal final project for a graduate seminar on violence, governance, and transnationalism, we’re bringing you their work in podcast form with some minor modifications. In Part One, they prepared for their interview with Jaguar Arreola, an Indigenous-Chicano musician based in Los Angeles, California. Part Two features the interview with Jaguar. And in Part Three, Adelaida and Ben reflect on the conversation and the project as a whole.
Benjamin Salinas 02:36
I guess I'll start with the first thing that's on my mind, which is I really appreciated his like, it's something that you don't get a lot in like social media discourse on activism, which is also like this. "Yeah, like we're fighting but also like, we take breaks and we're like we're chilling," and yeah [overlapping speech], like, "we make time for ourselves and like for caring for ourselves and like we ..." Yeah, I thought that was a really, like a really kind of nice part that he was talking about that like I just when you when it's only when you only see like the posts on Instagram or on social media, it's just like, it makes you feel like you have to be doing this kind of fighting all the time.
Adelaida Tamayo 04:51
Yeah. It's all or nothing. Yeah. And I think yeah, no, it's so weird how especially with COVID so much of our encounters with other movements have been through social media. And it's like, such, it's just a glimpse, right? It's just so like one idea. And often it's performative, which like has its own kinds of issues. But, there's something about like this feeling of inspiration I have right now, just from having an in-depth conversation. I think that's part of the gift of anthropology, right? Like, that is actually like, we love to, like, hate on our discipline, but actually, like, there's something cool about that in-depth conversation, right? And it was really interesting, I thought the way he answered the "what can we do?" question. I, when I, when I think we, when we were writing that question about what can academia do? We were thinking kind of theoretically, I think, like, "what is the role of academia in this struggle?" And I think that we were thinking theoretically, like, "we need different discourse about activism" or something. And his answer was so concrete, he was like, redistribute the wealth, donate to organizations start a club at your university, it was all actionable. And that was just it sounds so obvious, but I think we forget about the simple stuff, you know.
Benjamin Salinas 06:24
Yeah, especially, it was like, you know, a big part of this project was like, kind of reformulating what kinds of knowledge we are able to present, which is like, that's the again, that's how I was thinking about, it's like, okay, like, how can we reconsider what it means to be knowledgeable and like all these things, which is like obviously something he's concerned with. But yeah, like that whole, like, yeah, just like use the space and the resource you're given to just, you know, move them around, and like, move them to other people. Yeah, that I agree. That was, that was like, striking.
Adelaida Tamayo 06:57
Yeah. Because on the one hand, it's so obvious. And on the other hand, I feel like it's in the fringes of the academy. And maybe it makes sense, because it is a little bit radical. But redistributing the wealth is not something that's like, necessary, to be an anthropologist, right. It's something that occasionally people decide to sort of kind of do, right, like, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And one thing I've been thinking about also is like, the awkwardness of giving money away, I think this is more of just a personal battle, something I have to just get over. But it is something to consider in terms of anthropology methods, you know, and maybe it's something that needs to be kind of, like, standardized more, or, like discussed more in my methods class, right? Because, I mean, I don't know if that would be better or worse to institutionalize it, but like, I feel like giving money away tends to be kind of a rogue decision. Yeah. And we don't always know exactly how to do it. You know, like, even though we, when we decided, like, we're like, yeah, we for sure should pay him. but I was like, "wait, how much? I don't even know."
Benjamin Salinas 08:06
"Should we ask him first?"
Adelaida Tamayo 08:08
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah [overlapping speech.
Benjamin Salinas 08:11
Yeah, no, it's interesting. I think it's a very, like, United States-ian thing. Like, it made me i dunno, like, this is a very small part of it, but like, the idea of, you know, like, handouts, the government handouts to whatever like that discourse has been like,
Adelaida Tamayo 08:27
So ingrained yeah [overlapping speech]
Benjamin Salinas 08:28
Yeah especially, especially in the past, like five years. And like, I wonder to what degree like, I personally have, like, kind of like, even though I'm, like, completely disagree, like in my head I disagree with that, how much I've like interpreted some level of like, okay, maybe I shouldn't just give other people stuff because, because also, I don't want like patronize people, right?
Adelaida Tamayo 08:49
That was my big thing, yeah [overlapping speech]
Benjamin Salinas 08:50
I don't wanna be like "oh, you can't do anything". But then at the same time, like, you know, here I am, like making money off of reading books.
Adelaida Tamayo 09:00
Yeah. And then, you know, it also goes both ways. I mean, on the other hand, I don't think we need, it doesn't have to, you know, just have he said like, "self care is important too. You know, like, taking a break. Like taking care of yourself is important too." You know, I think there is also a balance to be had, which is part of what he was saying.
Benjamin Salinas 09:17
Yeah, I was gonna say that reminds me of what he was talking about, like, when he was like, "Yeah, you know, when I go to the club I'm not gonna be like listening to something with revolutionary potential. Like, I'm looking for a vibe," is what he said, and I was like, yeah, that's like, that's kind of analogous, right? Like, not every little action needs to be like, filled to the brim with revolutionary, like revolutionary action. Right. And I think there's also something important about, like, relatively happy and healthy and like, fulfilled people doing work like that. That's gonna be more effective than, like people who are just trying to like, force the fight every day.
Adelaida Tamayo 09:55
Totally, like a lifetime of fulfilled work is better than like one week of like, hard, hard, hard work and then a lifetime of burnout. You know [overlapping speech, or even like four years of hard work and lifetime of burnout, you know, totally. Another thing that stood out to me was the really intentional choices of language that he had. And it was inspiring to me in terms of how I might want to think about my language more in class settings and just in general. Because I think there's a lot to be said for just walking the walk silently, you know, like, like, humble, you know, he was really humble about his, like, magnificent political ideas, you know?
Benjamin Salinas 10:48
Yeah, yeah [overlapping speech]
Adelaida Tamayo 10:49
Like, he is it wasn't really much preaching, but it was small moments where he, you know, he used the term, Turtle Island, and you know,
Benjamin Salinas 10:57
Abya Yala [overlapping speech]
Adelaida Tamayo 10:59
He uses the word "my relatives," you know, it's like, yeah, yeah [overlapping, inaudible, speech]
Benjamin Salinas 11:07
Yeah. houseless instead of homeless. Abya Yala, that was the other one. Yes. And, like, it's interesting how he kinda, the so-called America right now. Like, that was the one he explained the most, right? But it wasn't even like, you're right. I didn't I hadn't thought about this. But it wasn't like preachy was like, these are my choices. these are my language choices, let me tell you why I'm making them. And maybe you'll, like be inspired by them or something. And I feel like that, like that kind of way of telling your story is also very inspiring.
Adelaida Tamayo 11:41
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, it's a niche word, but it made me think like, that's a really good approach to sharing ideas in class, you know, like, I think sometimes, yeah, sometimes we end up getting combative. Not that anyone actually gets really combative, but like, sometimes you get really frustrated when you disagree with someone and you're like, "well, like, you're just not thinking about this." But like, there's something to be said about just being clear with your own ideas. And just holding them dear. Yeah, yeah [overlapping speech]. And pridefully. Yeah, that was a cool interview. And it just like I said, During the interview, it totally justified everything I've ever written about mixed methods. Yeah. Like, this was like reading 10 amazing papers. Yeah. Plus a good vibe, you know.
Benjamin Salinas 12:36
Yeah, the whole, like, I love that. He said, like, you know," I can put it on paper and put into theory, but like, I don't need to," right, and then he talked about Neo Rome. Now, I was like, "Whoa, that's so cool," and I could totally see that being like, an academic paper. Right? Like, like," America is Neo Rome." Right? Blah, blah. "The 60..." You know, some fancy academic title, right? But like, he does the same, like theoretical, and like historical labor? Yeah [overlapping speech] In like, no, like, like, not nearly the amount of time and like, in engaged in dialogue. And we captured that experience of him coming to that realization he wants to tell us that and then us reacting to it. I feel like yeah, you know, now we're gonna write a story about how he did an interview.
Adelaida Tamayo 13:27
Yeah, and the instant dialogue, right, like, it's, yeah, it's something cool about that interview.
Adelaida Tamayo 13:35
With these dialogues, and the interview done, we went to work editing the video and this podcast. Afterwards, we decided to include a final debrief about the editing decisions we made, along with some final thoughts on the project.
Benjamin Salinas 13:49
So we're almost done with this project. And, you know, we've just finished the editing and I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about some of the choices you made while editing the video.
13:59
Yeah, for sure. So, I mean, I think it was interesting that while I was editing the video, because Jaguar would take our questions and just run with them and talk for so long with each question, I ended up mostly cutting out pieces of his dialogue that didn't quite feel relevant. That was a surprise to me. I thought I would be cutting out us talking but I ended up cutting out his talking more so I also ended up cutting out kind of our logistical discussions and false starts any other kind of awkward moments. Um, what about you? What were you cutting out and cutting in?
Benjamin Salinas 14:45
Yeah, so one thing I didn't really expect was that I was going to have so many, you know, insecurities or questions about my own voice in my own thoughts when I was recording, um, you know, we are just having conversations and dialogue. These weren't planned conversations with a pre-scripted narrative. So all my thoughts were just kind of coming as we, as I was talking, which I think is important to capture, right? That it's part of how anthropology works. In fact, that's how our projects work, we're just constantly in dialogue with our interlocutors and with other scholars, and then we finally get to put it into writing and cut up all the awkwardness. But when we were assembling, when I was assembling the podcast from all of our kind of all of our recordings, that wasn't really an option, like there are a few times where we went back and like recorded, we re-recorded something or added a voiceover to to try to get a transition. But a lot of it was just trying to find ways to make our somewhat disjointed thoughts into a coherent narrative.
15:54
Yeah, totally. And I think that brings me to kind of another element of the video making process that I've been thinking about is how, I mean, like, in an ideal world, I would have loved to fill the video with a bunch of fun elements with a bunch of other music videos with a bunch of even graphics, I could have done animation, like I had all these ideas, but the reality of the video making process is just it took me so long to edit that I just, you know, like I, we ended up doing a very simple edit with just a few moments where I put in some music, put in some music videos, or just images that he uses in his work. But it was really interesting and kind of exciting to see how different images can play along with the words. So that was exciting. Definitely something I would want to do more of in the future, but also kind of a learning experience for me, that first off, editing is hard, and it takes a while but also like there is you know, there's a specific skill set that we're working on, and editing is a skill set, just like writing is a skill set that we have to work on.
Benjamin Salinas 17:07
Yeah, absolutely. I felt the same way about the podcast, just I went and watched a few videos after I started editing about how to make a podcast, and they told us to record on certain types of microphones and in certain types of environments. And these were just not things we even took into account when we started making the project, and so we had to kind of have to calibrate and figure it out as we were going along, which was exciting and interested in like a good learning process, but definitely definitely showed me that there's, `it's not as easy as I thought it was going to be. It's as simple as cut forward as I thought it was going to be.
17:42
Yeah, but I feel like it was a awesome learning experience, and it was just at the end of the day. I mean, it was it was really cool to get such good practice editing and kind of practice doing an ethnography with a real interview. You know, I think there was something really cool about having a real interview with this dope activist who's so excited and passionate about his work that made us be able to really commit to making a good edit and really commit to try to get our skill sets to the level even if this is just like a first attempt at visual anthropology it's it's a cool way to figure out exactly what we need to learn and what the next steps are to become kind of fully formed multimodal anthropologists, right?
Benjamin Salinas 18:25
Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree. And for me, this just kind of confirmed that this is the direction I want to go. I I just think it's so exciting that like you said, he's such an energetic and like his person and his activist spirit. It's just like contagious and I just love that we were able to like capture that and not have to transform it into a text or into some kind of written work where his face, his facial expressions, his intonation….all of that gets lost in the text. So yeah, no, this is a really exciting project. Thank you for doing it with me.
Adelaida Tamayo 18:56
Yeah, thank you, Ben.
Anar Parikh 19:12
Thanks for listening to another episode of Anthropological Airwaves. We’ll be back in your ears next month with more great anthro audio. This episode was edited and produced by Adelaida Tamayo and Benjamin Salinas. Anar Parikh is the Executive Producer of Anthropological Airwaves and the Associate Editor of the Podcast at American Anthropologist. This episode features music by Benjamin Salinas. The intro and outro music you hear is titled “Waiting” by Crowander.
Anar Parikh 19:43
As always, a closed caption version of all of Anthropological Airwaves episodes, including this one, will be available on our YouTube channel and a full transcription on the episode page on the American Anthropologist website. Links to both are included in the show notes. If you enjoyed this conversation, be sure to subscribe to Anthropological Airwaves wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, don’t forget to rate and review us while you’re there. A five-star review in particular will help other listeners find the show! We would also love to hear from you in general. If you have feedback, recommendations, or thoughts on recent episodes, send an email to amanthpodcast@gmail.com. You can also reach out to us on our Facebook page or on Twitter with the handle @AnthroAirwaves. Find links to all of our contact information in the show notes and on the Anthropological Airwaves section of the American Anthropologist website.